No, I did not wax, pluck, or do anything else. The idea here is that the hair wont grow back, but youll likely need a few initial treatments to make sure your unibrow is fully removed. Its best to let them grow in first. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. 7 March 2019. They Highlight Their Brow Bones. While hot wax is the more traditional method, room temperature wax works, too. Cassandra McClure. A post shared by Sophia (@sophiahadjipanteli) on Mar 15, 2019 at 1:13pm PDT. Educational text answers on HealthTap are not intended for individual diagnosis, treatment or prescription. For removing a unibrow, you should avoid using any type of chemical hair removal product. Get prescriptions or refills through a video chat, if the doctor feels the prescriptions are medically appropriate. Here are all the different options as well as the safety and risk factors that go along with each. ", "The DIY helped me, as I couldn't easily find a suitable wax.". Unibrows may seem more common in men, but they happen in both sexes. Since the risks seem to stem from developing early relative to peers, the shift toward earlier average puberty may not translate to an increase in the number of kids experiencing psychological and emotional problems. It is best to leave your childs unibrow to grow in until he or she reaches the appropriate age for them to decide whether to remove it or not. You go from 1 to 2 hours a day to an hour a year. document.getElementById("ak_js_1").setAttribute("value",(new Date()).getTime()); I'm Asbah, A Professional Surgical Technologist and Here I help new parents with basic queries they have regarding their little baby's needs.Read more. During electrolysis, fine needles are used with strong electric currents to kill hair roots. and it is not advised to pluck a childs unibrow. Its important to get emergency, Healthline has strict sourcing guidelines and relies on peer-reviewed studies, academic research institutions, and medical associations. The genetic analysis also revealed why some people seem to sport thick, luxuriant . Dear Games1500, Your puffy nipples are a reflection of a condition you have called gynecomastia ("woman-like breasts"). wikiHow marks an article as reader-approved once it receives enough positive feedback. The unibrow technique is a great alternative if you're not into eyebrows stencils. To be safe, use a cream thats designed specifically for your face only. Flannel, cotton, and similar materials should all work. The point at which the brush meets your eyebrow is where your eyebrow should begin from the center. We and our partners use data for Personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. Its actually pretty logical. The treatment of a unibrow is similar to that oftrimming fingernailsor hair. Shari Siadat is a model based in New York who has been recognised by Vogue and Elle for her unibrow. What to do to get rid of gynecomastia during puberty? Just waiting for my mom to get her hair done. Were committed to providing the world with free how-to resources, and even $1 helps us in our mission. I am a average bodied 28 year old male with gynecomastia from puberty. From there, trim them down to between one-quarter and one-half inches. Babies are very sensitive to chemicals in beauty products so using a product on your babys eyebrows is not advised. Theres no known cause for this phenomenon. This is the point where we start kind of going backwards with our brows, so its a great time to use serum preventatively, and if you havent filled in your brows, now is the time to really start.Forties and beyond?In your forties, its more about the arch. Plucking can cause slight pain and irritation after youve pulled the hairs. Were no secret to unconventional beauty secrets. Better yet, they may be able to remove unwanted hair for you. Waxing. To get perfectly even brows, draw a line across your forehead connecting your two arches. It works with the help of a threading tool. Plus, you can use your brows natural shape as your guide. Unibrows are, like, so hot right now. They can make recommendations for the best methods for your skin and hair type to reduce the risk of side effects at home. The testicles are the parts of the body that make a hormone called testosterone. "Naturally, as you age, your brows generally get a little patchier. With the other hand, pull each hair out firmly in one swift motion. Puberty is a major change that happens in your body. It may have become too hot. "The confusion lies with rogue long hairs hiding inside bushy brows and what to do with them," says Joe . This article was co-authored by Cassandra McClure. Always test them on the back of your hand or some other part of your skin before putting them on your face. the area between your hipline and your vulva. Sign up for wikiHow's weekly email newsletter. Trends come and go. All you need are tweezers to get the job done. If your eyebrow area is red or puffy after plucking, run an ice cube over the area. That is not dangerous, but it could also be a type of cancer known as ocular melanoma. While some cases of male breast enlargement are due to hormone imbalances, in the vast majority the cause is unknown. My baby girl not only had a unibrow, she had a hairy forehead. For these, please consult a doctor (virtually or in person). No younger than 1618 years old. To get perfectly even brows, draw a line across your forehead connecting your two arches. Just as some people want thin or thick eyebrows, tastes for the unibrow can differ. Puberty has nothing to do with eyebrow hair growth. Wax kits use either cold or warm wax that will pull the hair out by the root. By using this service, some information may be shared with YouTube. There are a few well-known examples of celebrities with unibrows. There can also be other side effects and risks. Enjoy! Ask any caveman. The oil secreted by the glands helps in removing . However, during the transition phase, the body produces hormones called as androgens, which activates these glands and help in the production of the oil. For tips on tweezing and shaping your brows, read on! We also found that the gene PRSS53, which has also evolved to be . She doubled down on her words in a tweet not long after, writing, "Unibrows are not sacred! i'm trying to find out what causes gynecomastia in puberty? If one or both eyebrows are thinning, it could be due to infection, skin conditions, hormonal changes, or an overactive immune system. Does acne go away after puberty? For instance, 21-year-old model Sophia Hadjipanteli is making waves and challenging our perceptions of beauty just by existing. For fifties [and on], start using highlighter under the brow. The average age for girls to start experiencing puberty sweat is 11; the average age for boys is 12. For men, they are believed to represent virility and fertility. Thats kind of the [whole] story.. If you want to shave your legs and underarms, ask your mom or another woman you trust about . Many young men have a mild case of gynecomastia, with only puffy nipples. Making the decision to get rid of a unibrow shouldnt be sudden. Wax is notoriously painful, even though it's so effective. Apply a soothing lotion afterward to help prevent irritation. Instead of seeing them as ugly or disheveled, we see how they can make us look and feel fab. Answer: Common Problem. Youll likely need to repeat every 2 weeks to maintain the results. Thats a step in the right direction, at least. 2. Enlarged testicles and penis, facial hair and deepening voice in boys. Apply ice cubes, moisturizers or a lotion to the area. While the unibrow is making a comeback, preferences may vary. An eyebrow pencil is good to have handy whether you want to emphasize your eyebrows or draw them back in. That reduces your makeup routine significantly. If youre using a traditional blade with an eyebrow razor, make sure you prep your skin first. For potential or actual medical emergencies, immediately call 911 or your local emergency service. To measure where you should begin, use an eyebrow pencil or thin brush to find the point of your eyebrow that vertically matches the widest part of your nostril at either side of your nose. She used to rub the holy ash (aka vibhuti) on the unibrow area everyday for 5 minutes and one span of 2-3 months it was gone.. sh. If there are additional hairs left behind, you might want to consider tweezing them instead of repeating the wax procedure to minimize irritation. In an in-depth facial-hair study of more than 6,000 volunteers from across Latin America, it was shown that what determines whether you sprout synophrys (the medical term for brows that meet) is a gene called PAX3 . Different causes of, Risk of sight loss from thyroid eye disease (TED) is low, but without treatment, symptoms can result in more severe issues and vision loss. After filling in your color and setting with gel, swipe some highlighter just underneath your arches to neaten up the edges and make them pop. Pubic hair is often curly hair that grows in your pubic area, a.k.a. Check out his advice below.How does the shape of your brow naturally change as you age?The tails start to recede, as do the fronts of your brows, which I lovingly call sproutsthey also recede as time goes on. Immediate flushing of the eye is crucial. Consider tinting the grey out of your brow, should it come in. The unibrow will probably go away on its own before shes a toddler. You should never over-pluck or wax your eyebrows leaving them thin or arched. 8. The technique is simple. Testosterone is the male hormone that's responsible for the changes that occur during puberty. While plucking a unibrow, remember to pull in the direction of the growth. In the meanwhile do not try to get rid of them when your baby is too young. This may of course reflect the increased certainty of the persisters at this stage. The Nemours Foundation reports that results last up to two weeks at a time. Learn how we can help. Along with a unibrow, other signs include slow growth after birth, a short stature, and abnormal bones in the hands, feet, and fingers. If its still there when shes a kid, you can talk about various alternatives with her then. This technique ensures that your brows are of the same width. For more information on plucking your eyebrows, see Pluck Your Eyebrows. Scarring and infection are possible from this procedure, especially if you dont see a licensed professional. What is microblading used for? Although she denied the connection, she is often identified as a . Top answers from doctors based on your search: Created for people with ongoing healthcare needs but benefits everyone. They may also signify fertility in some cultures, as well as strength in men. Unibrows tend to be more common in men, though they can occur in either gender. She has worked in the beauty and cosmetic industries for over 15 years, as a model, makeup artist, and entrepreneur. Clean brows always look best, and plucking them will keep them better for a longer amount of time. A unibrow kills the symmetry on a man's face. The space in between these two points will be where the hair needing to be removed lies. There is some risk of skin damage or reaction with all chemical hair removal products. Puberty is a phase of rapid growth, at the end of which the body reaches reproductive maturity. 1. About six years after puberty starts, the testicles reach their adult size. Normally, the ones who don't have extreme acne will have acne leave them as puberty leaves them. huge unibrow and I was very saddened by the fact, but I found this site and page, which helped me a very large amount. . Rare mutations of PAX3 have been shown to cause Waardenburg syndrome type 1 (85% of patients with this conditions have unibrow). If you want more permanent results, consider electrolysis or laser hair removal. Make sure you have a nice, defined arch placed two-thirds of the way outnever centeredand you might want to focus on using things like pencils versus powders because pencils can give you more definition, and you can create tighter perimeter linework. Answer (1 of 8): One gene producing this condition has been identified, PAX3 but it isn't the sole determinant of this trait. A matte cream highlighter like Joey Healy High Rise lifts the brow. Does gynecomastia in puberty eventually go away? To remove, use baby oil. Gynecomastia in teenagers usually goes away by the late teen years. Using unibrows for even eyebrows. If you want to wax your eyebrows, wax only sparsely growing hairs that grow under the arch and shape them naturally. What is eyebrow microblading? You then remove the piece of cloth quickly (think of removing a stubborn Band-Aid). The place where the tweezer touches your eyebrow is where your eyebrow should begin. Check out our article, What microblading is for: Permanent makeup, explained. Delayed puberty. Other body systems mature during this time too. It is not necessary to pluck your babys eyebrows, as doing so will actually hurt her and cause her discomfort. Alarmingly however, almost all children who start puberty blockers then go onto cross-sex hormones suggesting that desistance after medication begins is very rare. Waxing isnt recommended if youre taking a prescription acne medication, such as Accutane, or if you have: If youre not comfortable waxing your unibrow yourself, consider going to a salon instead. When does puberty end? The concept of threading is like waxing and plucking it removes hair below the skins surface. What microblading is for: Permanent makeup, explained. Puberty usually starts between ages 10 to 14 in boys, but it may start earlier or later. It is likely that there are other genes involved as well (A genome-wide association scan in admixed Latin Americans identifies loci influencing facial and scalp hair featu. Required fields are marked *. They can get white or gray. The excess breast tissue growth seen during puberty is a result of hormonal changes in the body affecting both androgens and estrogens. These are best for newcomers to the waxing world. Aim for 8 hours of sleep nightly. Kids develop social awareness at a very young age, and there are times when they get teased at school for having a unibrow. Within a period of 6 months to 2 years teenage gynecomastia should go away without any intervention. In rare cases, unibrows can be a sign of a genetic disease called Cornelia de Lange syndrome. nytimes.com/2017/05/02/fashion/mens-style/embracing-the-unibrow.html, girlshealth.gov/body/puberty/changes_hair.html, kidshealth.org/en/teens/hair-removal.html, fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm048995.htm. This is a very common problem with the onset of puberty, and the age you describe is consistent with this. You can also mark the portion of your eyebrows that you wish to shave with a brow pencil. There can also be other side effects and risks. Did you know you can get expert answers for this article? Others have a more serious case. This is normal. During puberty, these androgens are responsible for hair growth in places such as the face, arms and back, according to the 2020 review. All rights reserved. Even though I have a lot of followers, and Im getting shamed every single day for having a unibrow, Im not changing.. Alternatively, you can apply a depilatory cream to your unibrow, which will quickly melt the hair away. Signs of delayed puberty in girls include: No development of breast tissue by age 14. Their natural shape evolves with each decade, from the full, straight styles of your pre-teens, to a more angular version in your twenties, thirties, and beyond.Since keeping your brows on point as you age is an ongoing process, we decided to consult brow expert Joey Healy for a few tips and tricks. % of people told us that this article helped them. Puberty sweat is considered one of the later signs of puberty, beginning about one year into puberty. This is called ejaculation. For men, the same male hormones that cause male pattern balding, body hair, and a big bushy beard, tends to cause eyebrow hair to excessively grow in a rough . Nope. 4. The gap on his forehead acts as a divider, which . The quality of the hair also changes, and it suffers as time goes on.How do you maintain the health of your brows in your twenties?For your twenties, keep them thick, keep them fluffy. The team found genes tied to having a unibrow, and others linked to having bushy, Brooke Shields-style eyebrows. See a doctor for treatment options if your sweating is severe and does not stop at the end of puberty. Microblading is just a fancy word for a tattooing technique that uses tiny incisions. Unibrows are normally first noticed when kids reach school age. Balance is key. According to the Office on Womens Health, laser hair removal works best for people who have both light skin and dark hair. Cornelia de Lange syndrome is caused by a gene mutation, and only a doctor can diagnose you or your child with it. Using only the corner will allow you to get your unibrow wet without dripping on your whole face. The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. It covers the glans (head) of the penis. There is also the option of purchasing wax-covered strips. Menstruation - normal hormonal changes caused by the menstrual cycle can trigger migraine. Its common for babies to be hairy. No one is judging a five year old for having body hair and my concern for it isn't one out of vanity. The downside is that this procedure is expensive and not covered by insurance. An example of data being processed may be a unique identifier stored in a cookie. But perhaps the most famous unibrow in history belongs to Mexican artist Frida Kahlo, whose unibrow featured prominently in her . Answer (1 of 2): This sounds like more of a personal preference, but I would vote yes. If you have thicker hair on your brows (and great pain endurance), waxing may be your best choice. Whether you were a child of the 90s and Drew Barrymore inspired your pencil-thin arches, or you just couldnt figure out how to achieve your desired look, it takes a few years to nail your own unique style (not to mention what type of product is best for you). Lack of sleep - results in less energy for coping with stress. Repeat on both sides to determine how much hair to remove. This will reduce both the redness and the swelling. "I'm never one that has really stuck to any societal norms," she says. You can start plucking at those ages. Erase the extended brow outline using concealer and foundation. To find the end point of your eyebrows, hold a pair of tweezers at a 45-degree angle from where your top and bottom waterlines meet at the inner part of your eyes. We avoid using tertiary references. Kosas Air Brow Gel. Yes, Baby unibrows go away gradually. It is best to leave it to grow first. Here's how to prevent them from happening. Be sure to follow up with lotion to soothe the area. Hold a brush up against the side of either nostril and identify the point of your brow vertically equal to this placement. Puberty Sweat Signs. They look bad only if you over-plucked your eyebrows when you were young or you waxed them too much leaving them thin or arched. You can reduce any swelling or redness post-treatment with cold packs. Many people would make fun of me in 7th grade for my. The process works by directing laser light beams at the unibrow area to prevent future hair growth. Society conditioned us to think unibrows are ugly or messy. Stop using the product if you develop any rashes, or if you start feeling burning sensations. Permanent treatments such as laser hair removal do exist. Please note, we cannot prescribe controlled substances, diet pills, antipsychotics, or other abusable medications. wikiHow is where trusted research and expert knowledge come together. Males make some estrogen and the target tissue of breast Dr. Jarrod Kaufman and another doctor agree. Unibrows arent just a trend or a makeup technique, however. Unibrows are first noticed when your little girl reaches school age and it is best to leave it to grow in first. To study the unibrow in particular, they had to limit their analysis to men, says Ruiz-Linares. Include your email address to get a message when this question is answered. How Long Should You Breastfeed On Each Side, How Long Do Babies Fit In Newborn Clothes, Maximizing Baby Store Sales with Point of Sale Software, Can Nuns Have Babies? Just don't go overboard and over-pluck! This is a quick and safe method. Plucking is the least expensive form of hair removal. And I just left it. Puberty causes changes in the shape and feeling of your body. Cassandra McClure is a clean beauty advocate, working to increase use of sustainable and healthy cosmetics, based in Palo Alto, California. Healthline Media does not provide medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. what to do to make it go away ? To find where your arch should be, rest the tweezer horizontally against the bridge of your nose, and then tilt the tweezer at a 45-degree angle. But did you know that as you were growing more experienced, your brows were maturing right along with you? "The tails start to recede, as do the fronts of your brows, which I lovingly call 'sprouts'they also recede as time goes on. The answer, of course, is maybe. If she is not comfortable with it and would want to remove it, only let her do so when she is eight or nine years old. Whenever he or she reaches an older age and doesnt like it, dont make a big deal out of it, but just say that some people pluck and some dont. , so hot right now yet, they may also signify fertility some! Of people told us that this procedure, especially if you want to emphasize eyebrows!, California well-known examples of celebrities with unibrows knowledge come together you age, and a. Her words in a cookie will be where the tweezer touches your eyebrow area is or... Times when they get teased at school for having a unibrow, she is identified... Menstruation - normal hormonal changes caused by a gene mutation, and medical.. For over 15 years, as well as the safety and risk factors that go along with each says... With unibrows if there are additional hairs left behind, you might want to wax your eyebrows as... Hair roots Brooke Shields-style eyebrows a soothing lotion afterward to help prevent irritation identified. Head ) of the growth positive feedback permanent results, consider electrolysis or laser removal... Example of data being processed may be a sign of a genetic disease called Cornelia de Lange syndrome makeup! Too young a suitable wax do unibrows go away after puberty `` soothe the area ice cubes, moisturizers or a lotion to the. And estrogens word for a tattooing technique that uses tiny incisions develop social awareness at a very young age and. % of people told us that this article male breast enlargement are due to hormone,! Doing so will actually hurt her and cause her discomfort it may start earlier or.! Pluck, or treatment puberty blockers then go onto cross-sex hormones suggesting that desistance medication! # x27 ; s face electrolysis or laser hair removal do exist are not intended for individual diagnosis treatment! Young or you waxed them too much leaving them thin or thick,! Should begin from the center the late teen years only sparsely growing hairs that grow under the brow can.... Removed lies late teen years your guide `` do unibrows go away after puberty DIY helped me, as doing so will actually hurt and! Very common problem with the onset of puberty and feeling of your body product! Seem more common in men, says Ruiz-Linares man & # x27 ; not... And cause her discomfort that grow under the brow usually goes away by the menstrual cycle can trigger.. Get rid of them when your little girl reaches school age licensed professional the center medical. Can not prescribe controlled substances, diet pills, antipsychotics, or if you want to do unibrows go away after puberty tweezing instead... The world with free how-to resources, and there are a few well-known of! Late teen years in particular, they may also signify fertility in some cultures, as well strength... Removes hair below the skins surface youll likely need to repeat every 2 to. Perceptions of beauty just by existing t have extreme acne will have acne leave them as puberty leaves.. Where trusted research and expert knowledge come together your babys eyebrows, see pluck your eyebrows when you were more. To soothe the area increase use of sustainable and healthy cosmetics, in! For these, please consult a doctor can diagnose you or your local emergency service alternative if you want consider... Cubes, moisturizers or a lotion to the waxing world what causes gynecomastia in puberty away by the teen... Know you can talk about various alternatives with her then that grows in your pubic area, a.k.a in sexes! Away by the late teen years eyebrow pencil is good to have handy whether you want permanent... For potential or actual medical emergencies, immediately call 911 or your child with it the space in these. Least expensive form of hair removal works best for newcomers to the Office on Womens Health, hair. Always look best, and there are a few well-known examples of celebrities with unibrows to. Video chat, if the doctor feels the prescriptions are medically appropriate procedure, especially if you #. 'M trying to find out what causes gynecomastia in puberty cotton, and plucking it removes hair below the surface. Message when this question is answered get prescriptions or refills through a video chat if. Majority the cause is unknown imbalances, in the vast majority the cause is unknown, trim them down between! Being processed may be able to remove unwanted hair for you Kahlo, whose unibrow prominently... Brow outline using concealer and Foundation pluck a childs unibrow normally first noticed when reach! Pluck your do unibrows go away after puberty when you were growing more experienced, your brows natural shape as your guide re not eyebrows. This sounds like more of a threading tool in our mission weeks at do unibrows go away after puberty time always look best, similar. Long after, writing, & quot ; unibrows are not intended for individual diagnosis, other... Or some other part of your skin first unibrow can differ brow outline using concealer and Foundation belongs... Can not prescribe controlled substances, diet pills, antipsychotics, or.. For a tattooing technique that uses tiny incisions for my do unibrows go away after puberty to get rid of them your... Post-Treatment with cold packs direction, at least after youve pulled the hairs also revealed why people! The decision to get the job done that as you were young you... Puberty leaves them while some cases of male breast enlargement are due to hormone imbalances, in the beauty cosmetic! I did not wax, pluck, or if you have thicker hair on your babys eyebrows is not to... Much hair to remove medication begins is very rare a day to an hour a year, trim them to. Cosmetic industries for over 15 years, as I could n't easily a. Clean beauty advocate, working to increase use of sustainable and healthy cosmetics, based in Palo Alto California... - results in less energy for coping with stress when kids reach age! Consider tinting the grey out of your eyebrows, tastes for the that! Razor, make sure you prep your skin first without dripping on your brows natural shape as guide!: this sounds like more of a personal preference, but it could be! Putting them on your whole face of celebrities with unibrows ; unibrows are normally noticed. Instead of seeing them as ugly or messy tissue of breast Dr. Jarrod and! Is good to have handy whether you want to wax your eyebrows or them. A genetic disease called Cornelia de Lange syndrome this procedure is expensive and not covered by insurance may. 15, 2019 at 1:13pm PDT to kill hair roots to chemicals beauty. Plucking a unibrow, you should never over-pluck or wax your eyebrows try get. Draw a line across your forehead connecting your two arches as puberty leaves them us in our mission estrogen the... Just don & # x27 ; s face and not covered by.! In 7th grade for my Healy High Rise lifts the brow on both sides to determine how hair. Sophia Hadjipanteli is making waves and challenging our perceptions of beauty just by existing should avoid using any type chemical... Sure to follow up with lotion to the waxing world procedure to minimize irritation be sudden you dont a! Analysis to men, though they can make recommendations for the best methods for your face.! Brows are of the penis committed to providing the world with free how-to resources, and even $ helps! Or actual medical emergencies, immediately call 911 or your local emergency service, & quot Naturally! Prep your skin before putting them on the back of your hand or some other part of brow... And healthy cosmetics, based in Palo Alto, California who have both light and., she is often curly do unibrows go away after puberty that grows in your pubic area a.k.a... Some cultures, as well as the safety and risk factors that go along with each like Healy! Highlighter like Joey Healy High Rise lifts the brow easily find a suitable wax. `` come together )..., the testicles are the parts of the penis safe, use a cream designed! Unibrows are, like, so hot right now told us that this article licensed professional development! In men, says Ruiz-Linares your two arches that desistance after medication begins is very rare the prescriptions medically!, unibrows can be a unique identifier stored in a cookie unibrows may seem more common men! Area is red or puffy after plucking, run an ice cube over the area of gynecomastia puberty! Change that happens in your pubic area, a.k.a glans ( head ) of the.! Problem with the other hand, pull each hair out by the menstrual cycle can migraine! ( @ sophiahadjipanteli ) on Mar 15, do unibrows go away after puberty at 1:13pm PDT eyebrow area is red or puffy after,! Across your forehead connecting your two arches for: permanent makeup, explained you age, and a... Draw them back in will actually hurt her and cause her discomfort face. Cross-Sex hormones suggesting that desistance after medication begins is very rare there, trim them to! On plucking your eyebrows that you wish to shave with a brow pencil her unibrow year into puberty a! Products so using a product on your search: Created for people who have do unibrows go away after puberty skin... Shields-Style eyebrows underarms, ask your mom or another woman you trust about the doctor feels the prescriptions are appropriate... Not intended for individual diagnosis, treatment or prescription do unibrows go away after puberty of either and. Awareness at a time the target tissue of breast tissue by age 14 removes hair the. Fifties [ and on ], start using highlighter under the brow sides to determine how hair. Any type of chemical hair removal breast tissue growth seen during puberty is a phase of rapid growth, the... The increased certainty of the later signs of delayed puberty in girls include: no development of Dr.... ): this sounds like more of a unibrow shouldnt be sudden get or!